Just thought I'd throw together a couple of lore inconsistencies I noticed with ESO (if anyone wants to comment, feel free to leave a message).
ESO takes place 1000 years before Skyrim. This puts it at around 2E530.
Faliensti has stopped moving. But Falinesti doesn't root until during the 3rd Era (around 3E420), and this is for the first time. Scrap that one. That was just the article writer's addition, not an official lore concept.
The Aldmeri Dominion isn't formed until 2E830, so why does it exist in 2E530? I've been thinking about this one. See below for a reasonable reinterpretation of PG 1st Ed.
AD
ESO's start date confirmed as four years after 2E579 and ten years after 2E572 (well done, ZeniMax, you can't count) so this puts it at 2E583 or 2E582. [1]
Regarding Aldmeri Dominion, above; Pocket Guide, 1st Edition, states The Aldmeri Dominion is a relatively recent creation. Formerly divided into the two realms of the Summerset Isles and Valenwood, the Aldmeri Dominion has its origins in CE830, when the heirs of the Camoran Dynasty began to fight over the Valenwood throne.
¥R's annotation, regarding The Aldmeri Dominion is a relatively recent creation says of this pamphlet, this regime, this lunacy. Instead of it's initial interpretation of eg. "The Empire created the concept of the Aldmeri Dominion as a means to belittle the Aldmer", consider instead "The Dominion was around already. The Empire only noticed it recently because of the Camoran Dynasty civil wars". Thereby the Dominion could have existed in the shadows since ca. 2E579.
There is now an official stance on this:[2] (it's reasonable)
Over time, there have been several federations in southwestern Tamriel known as the Aldmeri Dominion. None lasted very long, and due to the insular nature of the High Elves, their histories are poorly understood in Cyrodiil and the other provinces. The Aldmeri Dominion founded by Queen Ayrenn in 2E 582 is the First Dominion; the federation founded in 2E 830 is the Second Dominion; while the Elven empire of the Fourth Era (as seen in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim) is the Third Dominion – or possibly the Fourth. (It’s a matter of some debate among historians of Elven affairs.)
Cyrodiil
Prior to 2E896, the climate of Cyrodiil was tropical. Following Tiber Septim's conquering of Tamriel, he changes the climate of Cyrodiil to temperate. Hence before 2E896, and therefore during ESO, Cyrodiil's climate should be tropical.
I queried this on some forum or other somewhere, and was presented by another fan an acceptable retcon for how this could explain Cyrodiil being temperate before it was made so (if they are indeed taking the basic Cyrodiil from Oblivion).
In order to change Cyrodiil, Tiber Septim attained/received/achieved/activated/lesrned/(etc) CHIM, and used the Thu'um. CHIM I believe means 'change', and is directly related to the concept of the Tower. (I'm not going into what CHIM is, or how it works, because I don't understand it. Someone else can if they want to.)
From Mythic Dawn Commentaries 3, CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.
From The Many-Headed Talos (Imperial Library), You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.
The reton is thus: because CHIM is involved, the climate of Cyrodiil is changed for all time; changed in the past as well as in the future. Therefore Cyrodiil can be temperate even before the time when it was made so. (Such things can no doubt occur when the Dragon breaks.)
There is now an official stance on this:[3] (I don't like it)
Based on current Tamriel lore, Cyrodiil is not a jungle in The Elder Scrolls Online. To quote the scholar Phrastus of Elinhir: "The use of the phrase 'endless jungle' to describe Cyrodiil appears to be an error in transcription. Close study of the original, badly faded manuscript reveals that the phrase was miscopied, and should be more accurately rendered as 'extensive uplands.' The adjectives 'an equatorial rain' as applied to the Nibenay forest do not appear in the original manuscript at all, and I would posit were added by the scribe in support of his previous erroneous use of 'jungle.' Lady Cinnabar of Taneth, of course, takes issue with this exegesis, but the flaws in her methods of scholarship have been well-documented elsewhere."
For them to make this retcon work with established lore, Cyrodiil needs to have more forested regions in ESO than it did in Oblivion. Then there is some sort of jungle for Tiber Septim to get rid of later. Foresting, say, the Colovian Highlands (their "extensive highlands") and Nibenay Basin (where you get more rainfall) regions could get around that.
If they say jungle was better translated as highlands, maybe there could be more highlands that Tiber Septim will remove later. That means though that the two counts mentioning jungle (MDC3 and MHT) are also not accurate.
There is an update to the official stance:[4] (it's better than the last one)
Cyrodiil, at the time of TESO, was supposed to be a large jungle zone, Talos having later changed the climate. Instead, Cyrodiil will look like it does in Oblivion, and there’s a book in the game explaining why. You’ll have to explore Cyrodiil to find the answer!
I hope The Heartland of Cyrodiil isn't the book they're referring to (although it probably is). It's exactly the same as the "transcription" retcon above. This then doesn't explain what climate there is for Talos to change.
There's a new one [did this one come with Craglorn?]; they're messing with us now
Subtropical Cyrodiil: A Speculation. Notably this book is in direct opposition to The Heartland of Cyrodiil (as their authors seem to have a long-standing feud with each other).
This is an interesting one, and closest to what I believe is the reasonable truth. It still doesn't directly explain why Cyrodiil is not tropical now (ESO time), which it should be for Talos to change it later. But it may explain why it is not tropical later and may not have been temperate earlier. I have my own speculation on that (below).
White-Gold Tower (an echo of Adamant-ur-Tower, the causal nexus of linear time) responded to Man's new dominance of said Tower (and reception of its Stone) following the overthrowing of the Ayleids, and altered the local flow of time, thereby setting in motion the changing of the climate (SCAS suggests it was gradual, not immediate). Talos achieving Chim and becoming the new owner of the Tower and Stone finalised the temporal flux which began with the Alessian rebellion, fixing that which was and would be into a temperate climate. The temporal flux means it may have been perceived to be either temperate or tropical between Alessia and Talos, due to it being both at once, while it was definitely one before, and definitely the other after.
Books
They have said in AuA Variety Pack 4 that We have new lore books (by the scad) and old favorites from previous TES games – including both volumes of “The Lusty Argonian Maid.”. This is not possible, as it wasn't written for another 600 years.
They've retconned it into being a story which "has its origins in a long line of tales told by traveling bards, each with a slightly different title and premise".
They'll probably retcon it into being two different people.
There's a bunch more books that turn up in ESO that by common understanding were considered to be written later than 2E583. This has led to a fan theory that basically states books from the future have started randomly falling out of the sky due to the Planemeld mucking up the linearity of time.
A really bad example is ON:When the Dragon Broke, which specifically mentions Numidium in Rimmen (end of the Second Era) and the Warp in the West.
Maybe it's all because of this: Gandranen Ruins - Tales say that Gandranen was built by an Ayleid sorcerer, a worshiper of Hermaeus Mora who so loved books that she created a series of magical halls that would attract books from across Tamriel, no matter where—or when—hey were published.
Regions
The interactive map shows a number of regions crossing provincial borders. That's fair enough; they can put their regions wherever they want. As long as it works. Adding here so that I remember to check that it works.
Eastmarch and The Rift extend all the way to the eastern coast, therefore out of Skyrim and into Morrowind. They need to make sure they haven't completely forgotten about the Velothi Mountains, and that east of the mountains there should be Morrowind landscapes. Blacklight should be present within the northeast area of the Eastmarch region.
These regions don't go all the way to the coast, so there is a bit of scope for the Morrowind strip to be there. But the amalgamation of all the maps for the regions means that it still doesn't fit. (See Tamriel Foundry map.)
This map shows that the regions do work within their own context, but there is still a discrepancy between the position of Windhelm and the relative positions of where Winterhold (north-north-west, which would be in the sea on this map) and Blacklight (east, also in the sea) are supposed to be. Windhelm should be one bay further to the left. Solstheim is also too far to the west on this map.
Where did Bleakrock Isle come from? There's never been an island in the mouth of the Inner Sea before.
A poorly-thought-out retcon for the Windhelm/Blacklight/Bleakrock map discrepancy: Blacklight is actually further southeast than we thought it was. Instead of being directly east of Windhelm, it's actually directly west of Gnisis, on the headland south of Bleakrock.
Fun fact: the most recent version of the map has removed the part of Morrowind that The Rift and Eastmarch were covering.
What the in-game map should be for Eastmarch/The Rift/Velothi/Vvardenfell:
ESO Quests
Quest Colours
Quests are coloured based on their recommended level relative to yours. *Changes with Craglorn
Grey 6 or more levels below
Green 3 or more levels below
Yellow
Orange 4 or more levels above
Red 8 or more levels above
Do these colours mean anything in terms of gameplay? Perhaps a lesser/greater reward upon completion?
It seems not, but rewards are comparatively lesser since they are absolute, not relative.
Alliance Story Flow
Now that the Starter Islands are optional, their quests and mobs have been buffed from Lvls 2-4 to Lvls 4-6, and the first quests and mobs in Tier 1 have been nerfed from Lvls 5-7 to Lvls 3-5. This leads to an implication that the first Tier 1 quests (lvl 3) should be done before the Starter Island quests (lvl 4), so we will need to check whether the story across the zones makes sense if you do that (and that doing so is not bugged). In the long run though, our quest listings should keep quests in the correct order by story, rather than the order implied by level.
The NPC who gives the Starter Island quests is positioned right outside the house where you wake up. This makes those the "first" quests you come across, and therefore maintains order by initial presence.
It is unlikely that you will be "led" to the Starter Islands if you do complete some Tier 1 first, as the critical path between quests in Tier 1 is already set, so it'll have to be a conscious choice to go to the docks and start those quests if they are not given directly by the Prophet on leaving Coldharbour (which would be a better system).
Objectives that logically should be part of the story (because the story directs you right past it, or it is otherwise very story-relevant), but technically are not because the pointer quests don't end there.
It's Cadwell-critical, but is not pointed to. Lieutenant Koruni seems like she would start this quest after Morvunskar, considering how much dialogue she has about it, but instead only gives you Victory at Morvunskar. She should either give two quests, or only a Cradlecrush one, with Victory at Morvunskar used only if Cradlecrush is already completed, and a pointer to Fort Amol coming after Cradlecrush otherwise.
Against
The quests are not story-relevant, and should not even be Cadwell-critical.
Disabled Quests
This is a (probably incomplete) list of currently disabled quests, the patch in which they were disabled, and the patch notes that go with it. (Feel free to add if I miss any.)
New in TownAuridon (1.0.1) Malareth has been run out of Vulkhel Guard for the time being, but she vows to return at a later date.
The Hollow CityColdharbour (Hotfix) [The quest itself isn't disabled, but the gold reward is. This is likely an attempt to prevent bots from farming the quest hand-in.]
New Quests
Quests that are added in patches, and the patch they came with.
Bounty QuestsAvA (1.2.3) New Daily Quests have been added for killing enemy classes. These can be found at the bounty boards.
Crafting WritsMisc (1.5.2) You can now undertake certification to learn the basics of the various tradeskills, as well as to unlock Crafting Writ quests from your respective alliances.
Dungeon PledgesGuild (1.5.2) The Undaunted have established Enclaves near the capitals of each alliance. They invite adventurers to join them in the spoils of dungeon conquest.
Virtue Outlook [AD] (on the shore north of Roebeck)
Pell's Gate [AD] (south of Homestead Ruins)
Vlastarus Towers [AD] (west of Vlastarus)
Mist Mirror Refuge [AD] (lake northwest of Black Boot)
Blessed Water [AD] (lake west of Black Boot, south of Abbey of the Eight)
Clearwater Camp [AD] (southwest of Bloodmayne at the head of the creek)
Anutwyll [AD] (north of the northwest corner of Bravil)
Beriel's Lament [AD] (east of Bloodmayne)
Variela's Watchtower [AD] (west of Lunar Fang Docks)
Gottlesfont Priory [AD] (just northeast of Brindle)
Vindasel [AD] (northwest of Roebeck) not on the Unmarked Locations map
Green Lake [DC] (Southern end of Colovian Crags)
Caractacus [DC] (Southeast of Aleswell, west end of Northern Shore)
Bleaker's Way [DC] (north of Bleaker's Outpost)
Applewatch [DC] (northern end of Applewatch Wood)
Rielle [DC] (southwest of Cloud Ruler Temple)
Sancre Tor [DC] (north of The Mage)
Shadowed Path Tower [DC] (south of Rayles Mine)
Horunn Outlook [EP] (east of Horunn Milegate)
Lake Arrius [EP] (east of Arrius)
Thorn Lodge [EP] (northwest of Cheydinhal)
Kemen [EP] (south of Farragut)
Scinia Ruins [EP] (far to the east of Cheydinhal)
Urasek Ruins [EP] (just south of the city bridge)
Imperial Outpost [EP] (just north of Blue Road Farm)
Magia Ruins [EP] (southwest of Blue Road)
Vaermina's Shrine [EP] (just east of the lake in Mist Morrow Vale)
Arvina Estate [EP] (south side of the lake in Mist Morrow Vale)
Mist Morrow Tower [EP] (just north of Nornal)
Agrippa Mento's House [EP] (east of Alessia across the river)
Timberscar Hollow [EP] (just southeast of Cropsford)
Crown Point [EP] (just southwest of Cropsford)
Abandoned Homestead [EP] (just northeast of Niben Bridge)
Need to split the Artifact Gates from the Scroll Temples as having them on the same page is unnecessary. Gate pages will have details on location, mention of the fact they are a chokepoint and buffer zone, details of which keeps need to be taken to open them, and images. Temple pages will have details of the scroll that is there, a bit about the nearby area (which shares the same name) including location of the skyshard, the name of the Protector, the books that are there, and the tutorial quest that goes there.
Coldharbour
Fist of Stone
Shrouded Plain
Black Garrison
Other
These are places that we'll lose if we're not careful, because they don't have a zone.
Main quest places in Coldharbour are Strongholds.
Places that exist without of Nirn are Realms.
Other places within Nirn are currently given the type that they most logically conform to, like Unmarked Locations.
For extra classification, these places are "zone"d by quest type, eg zone=Main Quest, zone=Mages Guild, with a #switch on the "Zone" label in {{Online Place Summary}} that changes to "Quest Chain". "Quest Chain" is also used #ifeq:type|Realm as well, to stop Realms from being put in Zones (a nomenclature technicality).
Many places are part of a zone location (like Lorkrata Ruins is part of Lorkrata Hills), these should be redirects; this is just those odd ones where you are teleported somewhere else
Emeric's Dream, Godrun's Dream (place); both redirect to Quagmire, forget having a Quagmire page at all, both are still technically Stormhaven places
Coldharbour: All three alliances have agreed to the Guild-led invasion, meaning none have a claim to the territory, and all alliance members can be encountered there.
Forts are Alliance-controlled, everywhere else could be considered part of a "Cyrodiil faction" (not Imperial though).
Only the Imperial Camps are Legion-controlled.
The bridges and milegates would technically be Legion-controlled, but since they are not guarded, they can be defaulted to the Cyrodiil faction.
Imperial City will need further investigation. Are there any Legion-controlled elements? What is the default status of the districts? Where are the safe-zones? Can I use this icon at all?
Craglorn: Nominally in Covenant territory (they have been petitioning the Covenant for aid), but the Covenant don't seem to be interested. The Star-Gazers are searching for aid across all alliances.
Murkmire: Nominally in Pact territory (Saxhleel tribes from here joined the Pact), but what makes this zone neutral? Will the storyline be more important than the politics, like in Craglorn? Or will this be a Pact-focused zone?
Wrothgar: Nominally in Covenant territory (as Kurog joined the Covenant), but does the distrust from the Orcs who follow Malacath actually render this zone neutral overall? Will this content be introduced as Neutral to all alliances, or will there be a bias to the Covenant side of things?
Future Zones Map
Here is a map of the known regions in ESO, and some areas that could potentially become new zones and adventure zones.
Map
Legend
Extra boundary lines have been added where they were missing. (eg, between RS and WG, and down the side of EM and RI)
AL Alik'r
AN Anequina (including the Rimmen city area, shouldn't be called this as Reaper's March also includes part of Anequina, but this name is in the text files)
AU Auridon
BE Betnikh
BF Bal Foyen
BI Bleakrock Isle
BK Bangkorai
BW Blackwood (as seen in Oblivion)
CL Craglorn
CH Colovian Highlands (also could be West Weald)
CY Cyrodiil
DE Deshaan
EM Eastmarch
FA Falkreath (as seen in Skyrim)
GC Gold Coast (as seen in Oblivion)
GL Glenumbra
GS Greenshade
GW Grahtwood
HJ Hjaalmarch (as seen in Skyrim)
KR Khenarthi's Roost
MM Murkmire
MT Malabal Tor
NB Nibenay Basin (as seen in Oblivion, although the text files calls this Nibenay, which is inaccurate)
NV Nibenay Valley (as seen in Oblivion)
PA The Pale (also includes the Winterhold area)
RE The Reach (also includes the Haafingar area)
RI The Rift
RM Reaper's March
RS Rivenspire
QR Quin'rawl (from the text files, although that says Quin-rawl, which is incorrect)
SF Shadowfen
SH Stormhaven
SM Stros M'Kai
SO Solstheim (as seen in Bloodmoon, Dragonborn)
SS South Summerset (No source for name)
ST Stonefalls
SU Sunforge (from the text files)
TE Tenmar (from the text files, this area includes the Corinthe city area)
TI Topal Island (from the text files)
TM Thornmarsh (as stated in the Loremaster's Archive)
Pip Level 2: Group boss, "World boss" (in world) or "Mini boss" (in dungeons)
Pip Level 3: Dungeon boss or "Champion"
ESO Datamining
ZOS_GinaBruno: Datamining information isn't illegal or against the TOS, but please understand that anything datamined isn't final and is subject to change.
Not that this is an endorsement to actually do it, but since we do it anyway for our information, I thought I'd add here some things I found while digging in the data files that aren't used yet, but may reasonably appear in the future. Only things that look "finished" are here, no partially-created stuff.
Mounts
Type
Description
Name
Green Narsis Guar
The robust Green Narsis is the standard mount and dray-beast of central Morrowind.
Nipper
Skeletal Bear
A re-animated Skeletal Bear makes a fearsome mount, and is a favorite of northern Tamriel's necromancers.
Barebones
Skeletal Guar
The naked, grisly smile on the broad skull of the Skeletal Guar mount may be enough to send lesser opponents fleeting in terror when you ride into battle on its creaking, bony frame. The Worm Cult, of course, will just be jealous.
Grinly
Skeletal Horse
Behold the Skeletal Horse! Mortal races are not the only creatures that can be re-animated by necromancers. The best part: no need to muck out the stable.
Calamity
Skeletal Senche
The Skeletal Senche may be the most fearsome of all feline mounts. Expertly re-animated, even in undead form it retains all the lithe strength it possessed in life.
Kittybones
Pets
Type
Description
Name
Blackwood Monkey
This busy little buddy is sometimes mistaken for an imgakin monkey.
Flinger
Frisky Scrib
This lambent little larva loves crawling alongside valorous adventurers!
Larvie
(Unnamed grey hound-dog)
Freckled Guar
Known in Deshaan as loyal pals, the Freckled is the most intelligent breed of guar.
S'wit
Purple Daggerback
The glowing purple daggerback boar is found only in Craglorn in the vicinity of the Spellscar, from which it seems to have absorbed some sort of magical aura.
Pricklypear
Senchal Striped Cat
The Senchal Striped is a cat that is as cunning as it is elegant. It's both cursed at and admired for its ability to get into places it doesn't belong.
Sangiin
Necrom Ghostgazer Cat
The Necrom Ghostgazer is the favored feline companion of Telvanni wizards. They not only keep the skeevers down, but they can "see" intruding demons and spirits.
Who says a giant, aggressive, blood-sucking insect can't make a loveable pet? Not the Dark Elves of Bal Foyen, who breed them as trackers, watch-hounds, and netch-deflaters.
Skeeter
Ninendava Sacred Goat
The goats that come from the ruin of Ninendava in Cyrodiil are no mere domestic livestock. They have long been used in certain forbidden Daedric rituals—and have even been known to lead mortals through those arcane rites.
Should probably be a mount This stalwart mount comes from the ashlands downwind of the volcanoes of the Velothi Mountains, and is well adapted to surviving under the harshest of conditions.
Ash
Icons
Imperial City
Imperial City
IC closed
IC open
Imperial District
Imperial Sewers
Quest Types
Main Story
Guild
Normal
Crafting
Dungeon
Group
Raid/Trial
Alliance War
Alliance War (Group)
Maps
Imperial City
Imperial City (note this is misaligned by 30° compared to IC in Oblivion)
This one has been removed from the Alik'r Desert map in 2.1
There are related notes, diaries and journals referring to the "Twilight Lodge" and the "Violet Lodge", as well as "The Whispered Ball"
This particular group of Nocturnal cultists we're looking for call themselves the Violet Lodge.
And finally, you'll be inducted into the Violet Lodge at the great altar of Nocturnal herself.
Yes, it's the big recruitment party for the Violet Lodge. It's held at Headman Cosh's manor in Abah's Landing. We'll need each one of our members to contribute their talents on that mission. But first, I have a special mission just for you.
Implications: Molemir's Estate is connected to the "Lodge", an organization of Nocturnal worshippers. Nocturnal is also patron of the Thieves Guild. Lodge recruitment takes place at Abah's Landing. Therefore Abah's Landing is part of the Thieves Guild questline, and the Lodge is the primary antagonist of that line.
Update: Keeping solely for posterity. Thieves Guild on PTS makes no mention of the Violet Lodge; seems that it was scrapped, much like the original Imperial City design. A casualty of B2P?
Musings
Dyus of Mytheria
So he's the chamberlain of Jyggalag. But what/where is Mytheria? My opinion - Mytheria is the name of Jyggalag's realm of Oblivion (or at least it was, before it became the Shivering Isles).
Time
Does time pass linearly and concurrently in Oblivion, since Akatosh exists within Mundus? I would like to say that it is linear but not concurrent, as I would expect the Daedra to somehow regulate their own 'time'. Then the only instances when time is concurrent are when Oblivion and Mundus are connected [by Oblivion Gates, the Mouth, Dark Anchors] (otherwise logic doesn't work). Without concurrent time, a day in Tamriel could correspond to a century in the Shivering Isles, or a minute. Or indeed both or either, depending on the whim of Sheogorath.
The Tower
Is there a more mystical connection between The Tower and The Tower? It is said that the Tower is embodied by the fourth constellation; is that just representative, or is there more there?
How/Why are the constellations numbered? So far, I have
Warrior
Mage
Thief
Tower
The Wheel
If Mundus is the hub, Aetherius is the spokes, and Oblivion is the spaces, what is the rim? Vehk doesn't answer that question, he just goes into crazy stuff about giving birth to souls. Or is it that the rim is Aetherius, and the spokes are the Divines, acting as the bridge between Mundus and Aetherius?
How can there be eight spokes, but sixteen spaces?
Regions [Geographical](may be contained within Political Districts, may not be; Vvardenfell has nine)
Skyrim
Holds [Skyrim, Political and Geographical](there's nine)
Cyrodiil
Regions [Special](Colovia and Nibenay; Special because they are a collection of Counties and not a separate level of their own)
Counties [Political](there's eight, no idea if they cover the whole province together, but they are subdivisions of the above regions, but still themselves at "regional" level, ie above Settlements)
Regions [Geographical](there's ten, they have reasonably 'soft' edges, and do not fit neatly into the Colovia/Nibenay regions like the Counties do)
Elsweyr
States [Special/Political](Anequina and Pellitine; Special because between the creation and dissolution of the Confederacy, they did not exist, meaning other political and geographical subdivisions of Elsweyr are likely)
Unknown [Geographical]
Hammerfell and High Rock
Regions [Political](Pre-Warp, numerous city-states called variously kingdoms, counties, baronies, duchies, marches, fiefdoms and territories; Post-Warp, considerably less counties; political status beyond the Iliac Bay area is not known)
Unknown [Geographical](Wrothgarian, Dragontail and Alik'r are potential candidates)
Summerset
Islands [Special](Summerset Isle, Auridon, Artaeum; It's unknown whether the islands are further subdivided into political or geographic regions)
Unknown [Political]
Unknown [Geographical]
Valenwood and Argonia
Unknown [Political]
Unknown [Geographical]
Territories (For anything that's not part of a Province as we know it; at times includes Solstheim, Orsinium, Balfiera, and others)
Regions
Settlements
Districts (of a city)
Notes:
The Imperial Reserve [Cyrodiil] is printed on the map in the same font style as the counties
Moridunon [Summerset] is mentioned in the descriptions of Artaeum; it may be a region name (or something else entirely)